WhatTheySaid.co.za The Madlanga Commission record, in plain language

Day 44

4 December 2025

Record: Official record ↗

Who testified

Subjects discussed

👤 Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi (suspended EMPD/Metro chief; admits payments from Cat Matlala)👤 Senzo Mchunu (Minister of Police 2024 to 13 July 2025, then placed on special leave)🏛 National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN (2024/2025 request)👤 Adv Mahlape Sello SC👤 Ms Motlhasedi👤 Jaco Hanekom🏛 South African Police Service👤 Mr Vusimuzi 'Cat' Matlala

35 conflicts flagged on this day

◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-18f9fff26774
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies facilitation ('approached, not facilitated'); B affirms facilitation ('yes'), same actor/action, direct contradiction.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Me, I approached, not I facilitated.”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Yes. Facilitation, yes.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-23e68f903141
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Both claim number of political murders in 2018 in KZN; 14 vs 58 cannot both be true for same year and referent.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“2018, in KZN there were 4,382 murders. ... in that year in 2018, you had 14 that were political”
Day 45Adv Sello SC“2018, I think it had about reached, the crisis had reached its boiling point. Because 58 politically motivated murders were recorded.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-312f7755f402
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A frames disbandment as integrating existing capacity; B directs immediate disestablishment—incompatible meanings of the same disbandment.
Day 45Minister Senzo Mchunu“when you disband or when you reconfigure PKTT, it would mean in practise integrating what is there currently”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“I, therefore, direct that the Political Killings Task Team be disestablished immediately.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-3527a65f0420
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says only review was discussed, not disbandment; B states disbandment is actively in process—contradictory on same entity.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“we were agreeing that there should be a review, but it was not particularly on disbandment”
Day 63Lieutenant General Sibiya“now that we are in the process of disbandment”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-41de37374ed1
Senzo Mchunu
Minister claims allocating two different deputy ministers (Mathale vs Boshielo) to the same matter; both cannot be true.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“I allocated Deputy Minister Mathale to deal with the matter”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“General Theo, to whom I allocated Deputy Minister Boshielo”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-51dd40446599
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says pieced at ministerial level, not presidential; B says solely established by presidential intervention—directly opposed on origin.
Day 45Minister Senzo Mchunu“it was pieced at ministerial level, not a presidential task team as it were”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this was solely established through the intervention of the President”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-5e138ae66a1e
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Two mutually exclusive triggers for start of same relationship: meeting him vs communicating with Mike.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“it was starting after I met with him”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“after communicating with Mike, you see, that is when we started”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-64c8fe2c6dab
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Same entity's creation authority: A says not by National Commissioner, B says in law by National Commissioner.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this one, as I say, was not created by the National Commissioner.”
Day 44Chairperson“the creation would have been informed by the IMC decision, but in law, the actual creation would have been by the National Commissioner.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-681585dd28af
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A characterizes payments as small (R500/R300); B asserts amounts were thousands—contradictory descriptions of same payments.
Day 44Chairperson“From him for things like petrol, R500.00 here, R300.00 here”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“no, it was thousands.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-6864fb765357
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same person's suspension dated to 2023 vs December 2025; cannot both be the suspension date.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was suspended 2023”
Day 57Adv Khumalo SC“He was suspended in December 2025”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-6c324c6e6dd7
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says discussion was about review not disbandment; B says effective immediate disbandment—incompatible characterizations of same action
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“we were agreeing that there should be a review, but it was not particularly on disbandment”
Day 63Lieutenant General Sibiya“effective immediate in terms of the disbandment”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-85c94aede477
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same person's area of responsibility stated as two different, non-overlapping divisions; both cannot be true simultaneously.
Day 57Adv Khumalo SC“he was responsible for corporate services”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“you were responsible for Specialised Services and Operations”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-8ba50b93554a
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says the task team was not created by the National Commissioner; B says it was created by the National Commissioner. Same entity, direct contradiction.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this one, as I say, was not created by the National Commissioner.”
Day 44Chairperson“the actual creation would have been in terms of statute, and where would that be? It would be in SAPS, and it must have been by the National Commissio”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-9fee2c4e45ab
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A asserts having two statements in his bundle; B asserts having no bundle and no access—cannot both be true of same person.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“in my bundle, I have got two statements”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not have a bundle. I cannot have access.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-ad7647595060
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Same task team's establishment dated to 2018 in one claim and 2019 in the other; cannot both be true.
“in 2019, a directive was made to the National Commissioner of Police following the”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“when NPKTT was established, it was 2018”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-b07f831c0c0c
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Both state the number of finalised cases for the same task team; 199 vs 191 cannot both be true.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“And then 199 finalised, which is 57 percent.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“you have 191 that are finalised over.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-b661ba56a09f
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says this team was not created by the National Commissioner; B says it was constituted by the National Commissioner—same entity, direct contradiction.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this one, as I say, was not created by the National Commissioner.”
“The team was constituted administratively by the National Commissioner,”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-c1ac6e377962
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A describes seeing many vehicles at the scene; B affirms seeing nothing at the scene—cannot both be true of same observation.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“On my arrival, I found many vehicles marked and unmarked, including those of private individuals like his, which was red, parked next to the house”
Day 90Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Yes, Chair.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-d80b0970213e
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A says he received a call from Jaco; B says he called Jaco immediately—opposite direction of the same call.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Around 3 to 3 am, I received a call from Jaco”
Day 90Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Immediately I called him”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-f6427ba35194
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A attributes establishment solely to President's intervention; B says it was constituted by National Commissioner—mutually exclusive origins.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this was solely established through the intervention of the President”
“The team was constituted administratively by the National Commissioner,”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-fdeeebcdd984
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says no one expected disbandment; B says SAPS management anticipated and expected it—directly contradictory re same disbandment.
Day 63Lieutenant General Sibiya“no one expected disbandment. No one expected this letter”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“in the minds of SAPS management combined, both from the Ministry and from management, it is anticipated. It is expected.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-0e36e5803ba7
Minister's directive letter of 31 December 2024
Both interpret the same directive's condition as awaiting different events (preliminary report vs Minesco meeting), incompatible referents.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“it is like saying pending a preliminary report”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“pending the Minesco meeting”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-1f41cd09dea3
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A says once, not varying; B describes recurring, varying payments (petrol, borrowing) from same person—cannot both be true.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, not varying amounts. I think it was once.”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Sometimes he will give me money for petrol, or sometimes he borrow money from me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-23e68f903141
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Both claims describe political/politically motivated murders in 2018 KZN but give incompatible counts: 14 vs 58.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“2018, in KZN there were 4,382 murders. ... in that year in 2018, you had 14 that were political”
Day 45Adv Sello SC“2018, I think it had about reached, the crisis had reached its boiling point. Because 58 politically motivated murders were recorded.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-2a0e257797bb
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A asserts the disbandment decision point was reached many times; B asserts no such point was ever reached. Cannot both be true.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“I would say many times, Commissioner.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“No such point was ever reached directly, as you ask.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-3b7f3c30a9a3
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Immediate disestablishment cannot coexist with merely starting a disestablishment process; the timing/scope directly contradict.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“I, therefore, direct that the Political Killings Task Team be disestablished immediately.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“Only.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-3c5144adcdb6
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
Same 56 guilty verdicts attributed to two different totals (191 vs 333), which cannot both be the true denominator.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“out of 191, there are 56 where the guilt verdict has been given, which is 29 percent of the 191.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“out of 333 documents, you have 56 guilty versions, verdicts.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-51dd40446599
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says solely via President's intervention; B says established at ministerial level, not presidential—mutually exclusive origins for same team.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this was solely established through the intervention of the President”
Day 45Minister Senzo Mchunu“it was pieced at ministerial level, not a presidential task team as it were”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-64c8fe2c6dab
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A says not created by National Commissioner; B says in law creation was by National Commissioner—same entity, directly opposing claims.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this one, as I say, was not created by the National Commissioner.”
Day 44Chairperson“the creation would have been informed by the IMC decision, but in law, the actual creation would have been by the National Commissioner.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-681585dd28af
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's payment amounts: claim A characterizes as hundreds (R500/R300), claim B insists thousands; mutually exclusive scales.
Day 44Chairperson“From him for things like petrol, R500.00 here, R300.00 here”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“no, it was thousands.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-8ba50b93554a
National Task Team Investigating Political Related Cases in KZN
A states the task team was not created by the National Commissioner; B states it must have been created by the National Commissioner—same entity, directly contradictory.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“this one, as I say, was not created by the National Commissioner.”
Day 44Chairperson“the actual creation would have been in terms of statute, and where would that be? It would be in SAPS, and it must have been by the National Commissio”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-9fee2c4e45ab
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity claims both that he did not have a bundle and that he has two statements in his bundle—cannot both be true.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not have a bundle. I cannot have access.”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“in my bundle, I have got two statements”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-ac9bfc1697ed
Ekurhuleni Metro Police Department
Claim A asserts they installed blue lights; Claim B denies they install blue lights—directly contradictory on same referent.
Day 44Adv Sello SC“And they have exercised that right by installing blue lights.”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, they do not instal blue lights.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-e15a37f6cba3
Minister's directive letter of 31 December 2024
Claim A states the letter does not say 'with immediate effect' while Claim B says it says 'immediately'; same letter, directly opposed on wording.
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“It does not say, for instance, with immediate effect.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“It says immediately, yes.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
XW-2c45e21a9c89
Minister's directive letter of 31 December 2024
interpretation of further
Sello reads the paragraph as immediate disestablishment plus a report; the Minister reads 'further' as going forward rather than immediate, an incompatible interpretation of the same clause.
Day 44Adv Sello SC“My interpretation of that paragraph is further to the immediate disbandment, a preliminary report must be filed.”
Day 44Minister Senzo Mchunu“Meaning decision taken and then processes, but further to that, going forward, or no …[indistinct] in other words, then prepare preliminary report.”

Claims from this day

← All hearing days

Source: criminaljusticecommission.org.za — official transcripts and audio. Protected and pseudonymous witnesses are not identified.

© 2026 Datastroom IT (Pty) Ltd · Published in the public interest · Not affiliated with or endorsed by the Commission