WhatTheySaid.co.za The Madlanga Commission record, in plain language

Day 43

3 December 2025

Record: Official record ↗

Who testified

Subjects discussed

👤 Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi (suspended EMPD/Metro chief; admits payments from Cat Matlala)👤 Adv Mahlape Sello SC🏛 Ekurhuleni Metro Police Department (EMPD) / the City👤 Commissioner Mzolo👤 Jabulani Isaac Mapiyeye🏛 City of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality🏛 Cat Protection and Security Services (Pty) Limited👤 Mike Van Wyk

38 conflicts flagged on this day

◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-00ab0a14ab48
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A says he only communicated with one person, Maseko; B says he was communicating with Vusi Matlala—cannot both be true.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I only communicated with one, with Maseko”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was communicating with Vusi, you see, Vusi Matlala”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-06694d3e3813
Task Team extension phase 01 Apr 2021 – 31 Mar 2022
A states no formal arrangement existed; B states there was one, directly contradicting on the same entity/period.
Day 43Chairperson“There is still no formal arrangement with any security company.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was, but I did not execute it the way we wanted it to be executed. I think elections disturbed me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-0b5734d340ac
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's suspension cannot occur in both December 2025 and 2023; dates are mutually exclusive.
Day 57Adv Khumalo SC“He was suspended in December 2025”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“this is 2023”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-16416eb3a710
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies meeting the two; B affirms meeting and briefing the two—same referents, directly contradictory.
Day 90Commissioner Mkhwanazi“But I did not meet with the two of them.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I met the two of them. I briefed them.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-18f11f0e2622
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A asserts he remains suspended; B asserts he is back at work — mutually exclusive states at same time for same person.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“but I am still suspended”
Day 56Adv Khumalo SC“the effect of that is that Mkhwanazi is back at work”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-23154e56c732
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies communicating with anyone from EMPD; B admits communicating with EMPD Deputy Chief—cannot both be true.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not communicate with anyone from EMPD from my side”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I communicated with my Deputy Chief, I say hey, Deputy Chief, there are these cars, man, they are black and what, what, but they are still performing”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-3211ee183bde
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A says IPID approach was same day as blue lights call; B says it was the day after—same event, incompatible timing.
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“It was the day I have said they called me for blue lights.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was called by IPID. It is the day after.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-35cce90df606
Task Team extension phase 01 Apr 2021 – 31 Mar 2022
A says no formal arrangement existed; B says there was a formal arrangement (just poorly executed) for same period.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was operationally, members are working, there is no formally.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was, but I did not execute it the way we wanted it to be executed. I think elections disturbed me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-38b9b0ab6d00
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same person: 'did not meet with them' directly contradicts 'I met the two of them' about meeting the same referents.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not meet with them”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I met the two of them. I briefed them.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-4a35327ac099
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Cannot both be the Deputy Chief of Police and report to the Deputy Chief of Police as a separate superior.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I am appointed as the Deputy Chief of Police.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“In this role, I reported to the Deputy Chief of Police”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-53e38d940240
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies meeting them personally; B affirms meeting the two and briefing them—same referent, cannot both be true.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not meet them personally”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I met the two of them. I briefed them.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-6010ee742000
Task Team extension phase 01 Apr 2021 – 31 Mar 2022
A affirms no formal arrangement existed; B states there was one, directly opposing on same entity and period.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“You are correct in that manner.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was, but I did not execute it the way we wanted it to be executed. I think elections disturbed me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-690984b04586
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's suspension dated to Dec 2025 vs 2023; cannot both be the suspension time.
Day 57Adv Khumalo SC“He was suspended in December 2025”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“it was after we had this 2023. That is a suspension”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-7edbbf270eef
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A claims he communicated with only one person (Maseko), but B adds communication with Mzolo—both cannot be true.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I only communicated with one, with Maseko”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I also communicated by that time with Deputy Chief Mzolo”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-80c3e78d3fc5
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies communicating with anyone from EMPD; B admits communicating with Deputy Chief Mzolo, an EMPD official.
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I did not communicate with anyone from EMPD from my side”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I also communicated by that time with Deputy Chief Mzolo”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-8268d6e72dc9
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
One says no longer suspended, other says still suspended—same entity, same status, cannot both be true.
Day 69Adv Chaskalson SC“Brigadier Mkhwanazi was no longer suspended”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“but I am still suspended”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-9af1b3e28c3a
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A qualifies closeness as 'not that close' while B asserts 'very close' to same person; cannot both be true of same relationship.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“But not that close, close, close, close”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was very close to him”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-9b9023dd9604
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's own characterisation of closeness contradicts: 'not that close' vs 'very, very close.'
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“But not that close, close, close, close”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“we were very, very close, you see, communicating.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-a3df46867481
Task Team extension phase 01 Apr 2021 – 31 Mar 2022
A says no formal arrangement existed (only a communique); B affirms one existed but was poorly executed—directly opposing existence claims.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was a communique.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was, but I did not execute it the way we wanted it to be executed. I think elections disturbed me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-ab03e826612c
Task Team extension phase 01 Apr 2021 – 31 Mar 2022
A states no formal arrangement existed as at 16 Oct 2021; B asserts there was one—directly opposing existence claims for same period.
Day 43Chairperson“as at 16 October 2021, there was no formal arrangement with any security company for it to assist the Metro in the provision of security services”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, there was, but I did not execute it the way we wanted it to be executed. I think elections disturbed me”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-b78838ed1a87
Deputy Commissioner Revo Spies
Same referent (Julius, documents) with directly opposite assertions: has vs. does not have; cannot both be true simultaneously.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Julius is having documents.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“He said, Julius does not have documents.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-bdb5d54411cf
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A denies meeting him and Etienne; B affirms meeting the two and briefing them—same referents, cannot both be true.
Day 90Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I met the two of them. I briefed them.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-c52ca9733f44
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
A claims knowledge of the company; B claims not sure which/what type of company—directly contradictory on same referent.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I know the company but not the VIP protectors and everything.”
Day 90Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I am not sure what type of company or which company did he work with.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-c75847b2a2e6
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's assessment of the same plan cannot be both 500% and 100%.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“It was 500%.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“It was 100%”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
KNN-c82a5a317b1a
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity's suspension dated December 2025 vs 2022/2023; these timeframes cannot both be true.
Day 57Adv Khumalo SC“He was suspended in December 2025”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“we are suspended 2022/2023”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
KNN-d338bf830918
Email from Chief of Staff to office of National Commissioner, 1 Novemb
Same email describes the action as both 'spoke with Director' re memo by 4 April 2022 and 'directed Commissioner' to respond by today; title, verb, and deadline conflict.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I spoke with Director Mkhwanazi to respond to the attached memo from the Chief of Police before close of business on 4th April 2022.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I have directed Commissioner Mkhwanazi to respond to this memo by close of business today.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-18f11f0e2622
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Cannot be both suspended and back at work for same person simultaneously.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“but I am still suspended”
Day 56Adv Khumalo SC“the effect of that is that Mkhwanazi is back at work”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-35ff3d54c288
Chief Superintendent Kelebogile Thepa
A states she sent things to media; B states nothing was sent—directly contradictory about same sending action.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“That time, Kelebogile Thepa, as the media officer, she sent these things to media, you see.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“but there was nothing that was sent.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-57378b18a077
Chris Steyn
Being 'just the proxy' denies real authority, while handling budgeting implies substantive responsibility/authority over the same role.
Day 43Adv Baloyi SC“He is just the proxy.”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“He deals with budgeting and everything with his team”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-75698ef75f64
Medicare 24 Tshwane District
A says members' contributions bore the cost; B says neither members nor others did—cannot both be true of same cost.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“It was the contribution that they were contributing towards that”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Yes”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-7657a4351cb1
EMPD truck hijacking unit
A frames THU as legitimate anti-hijacking unit within services; B alleges it actively hijacks trucks—incompatible missions for same unit.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“These included the drug unit, taxi task team, truck hijacking task team, the illegal mining task team, among others”
Day 58Adv Khumalo SC“they are hijacking trucks on the highways.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-89fa4a94ef0d
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same person characterized as both 'father' and 'brother'—mutually exclusive familial framings of one relationship.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I took him as my father”
Day 44Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I treated him as a brother like, you see.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-9af1b3e28c3a
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same person's closeness to same referent stated as 'not that close' versus 'very close'—directly contradictory characterizations.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“But not that close, close, close, close”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was very close to him”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-b78838ed1a87
Deputy Commissioner Revo Spies
Same referent Julius: one claim says he has no documents, the other says he has documents; cannot both be true.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“He said, Julius does not have documents.”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Julius is having documents.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-bbbf5a8350cd
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
Same entity claims no contribution ('I just read') yet says he was part of formation/participated in the document; cannot both be true.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, I just read”
Day 89Commissioner Mkhwanazi“I was part of formation of this document. I participated in this document.”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited◆ Cross-witness
NLI-dec10f294b3a
EMPD truck hijacking unit
A treats THU as an established Specialised Services unit; B describes it as an unauthorised, irregularly established unit only heard about—incompatible status.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“These included the drug unit, taxi task team, truck hijacking task team, the illegal mining task team, among others”
Day 58Adv Khumalo SC“we heard about an unauthorised truck unit which was, I do not know, irregularly established”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-e2163bca76d9
City of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality
A says Ekurhuleni never satisfied itself providers pose no danger; B says it does satisfy itself they pose no risk—directly opposed.
Day 43Adv Sello SC“Ekurhuleni has never satisfied itself that they do not pose a danger to the City of Ekurhuleni, so they have not gone through an assessment process”
Day 43Adv Sello SC“Ekurhuleni satisfies itself that these service providers themselves do not pose a risk to Ekurhuleni”
◎ Likely — AI-assisted, cited
NLI-f6724b8c4ebd
Commissioner Julius Mkhwanazi
'No, I just read' (no contribution) directly contradicts admitting to commenting and changing the document's content/placement.
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“No, I just read”
Day 43Commissioner Mkhwanazi“Ours was just to comment there and there and change where it is and take it to another place”

Claims from this day

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Source: criminaljusticecommission.org.za — official transcripts and audio. Protected and pseudonymous witnesses are not identified.

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